Dan Lok Interview

by Jill on June 25, 2013

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Dan Lok

Dan Lok

Name: Dan Lok

Industry: Internet Marketing

Website: www.danlok.com

Product: Lies Salon Owners Believe

Dan Lok’s Bio: Dan Lok is a self-made multi-millionaire, serial entrepreneur and award-winning author.  He has been at the forefront of Internet marketing for the last 7 years. He is currently on the cutting edge of the boom in marketing in Social Media, SEM, SEO, E-mail Marketing, Mobile Advertising, and Web 2.0.

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Interview Transcript:

David: Hi guys David Jenyns here from Melbourne SEO Services. I’m really excited today to have lined up a fantastic interview for you with a gentleman called Dan Lok. Now I came across Dan’s work early on in my career when I started getting interested online. He really has a fantastic story. It’s almost like that rags to riches having worked in a supermarket, dropped out of college, didn’t do uni, started his own businesses.

He had thirteen failed businesses before he got his first successful one and then really started to find his feet when he started to pick up some internet marketing skills. Since then he’s been very much on the forefront of internet marketing. Now he’s evolved into a businessman, managing businesses and investments and things like that.

Most recently I got in touch with Dan because there were some domain names I purchased a long time ago of some rising internet stars that I saw. I thought, I really want to watch these guys. Dan was one of those websites that I registered, a website in Dan’s name. We had a little bit of a chat and I said, look, what are you up to these days? It was interesting to see the migration and how he’s moved from ‘traditional internet marketing’ into more of a businessman.

I thought it might be really good to get him on the line and perhaps tell a little bit about his story and some of the lessons that he’s picked up about building business. First and foremost, I just want to welcome you to the call Dan.

Dan: Thank you. Thank you for having me David.

David: Maybe to start off with, Dan, maybe if you can just tell us a little bit. Like I said, there were quite a few successes that you had when you first started out with your internet marketing. Maybe you can tell us a few of those successes and what you’ve been doing over the past couple of years and how you’ve shifted out from internet marketing.

Dan: Absolutely. I was born in Hong Kong and I came to North America years ago with no money, no connections, and not a word of the English language on my lips. As you can probably tell from my accent, English is not my first language and I had to learn it from scratch. In fact some of my friends say I speak like Jackie Chan. I think I’m better than Jackie Chan.

If you could imagine going to a country where you don’t speak the language, growing up I wasn’t one of those people who had great dreams and big visions that I was going to do this and I was going to do that. I wasn’t one of those people who know all the right people and all the right places because I didn’t know anybody when I first came to North America. I wasn’t one of those people who had a great education, a resume because in fact I never finished college. I dropped out of college.

Looking back, how I got into business, it was basically by pure accident. I almost got back into this whole thing because at the time I was working at a grocery, the guy who worked at the check out and bagging the groceries and taking it to your car and things like that. That was the only job I ever had in my life. I’ve never worked for anyone but myself since then.

At the time I got into business because my Mum and Dad got divorced when I was sixteen years old. My Mum and I immigrated to North America and at the time I was making the minimum wage at a supermarket. Looking at the job that I had, I couldn’t provide for my Mum, working at that minimum wage job. I got into business with one intention and with one intention in my mind because I wanted to take care of my family, That was that. I couldn’t provide for my family working at a dead end job, making the minimum wage and that’s how I got into it.

Also no one wanted to hire me, so that didn’t help. The only person I could work for was myself. So then I got into business. First of all, the very first business I started was mowing lawns for people in my neighbourhood with a couple of my buddies. Let me tell you about that business.

The lawn mowing business was in my high school days and that business was ok. We had a nice lawnmower and we printed all these fliers. We would go to different neighbourhoods and hand them out. Except, David, we had one little problem and that was this. We had no customers. So obviously that business went under in a few months.

I started my next business and learned from my mistakes and guess what, this time it failed again. I started my next business. I was involved, I tried network marketing, I tried vending machines, I tried mail order back then, the direct mail. I tried many of these so called business opportunities and none of them was successful. It was all a waste of time.

Until one day I remember I met a gentleman whose name was Alan. I met this gentleman and he is a very successful businessman. I picked his brains and said, can you help me, can you teach me? What is going on? How come my businesses are not working? I will never forget what he said to me. At the time I was complaining to him, I said, you don’t understand. Alan. The economy is bad, I can’t get customers, they’re cheap and they don’t want to spend money. I’m paying too much in taxes. My business is terrible.

Alan, my mentor said to me, this is something I will never forget: Dan, your business is terrible because as a business person, you’re terrible. It was very painful to me, it was what I didn’t want to hear but I needed to hear it.

Then I said, ok, I got home, I was mad but after I sat down and thought about it, I knew he was correct. I didn’t know business. I was starting all these businesses but I didn’t know business. I wasn’t reading books on business or management or marketing or communication. I wasn’t attending workshops, I didn’t have a mentor, I was just doing it and working in it and trying to make it work but I had no guidance, I had no road map. That’s why I had all these failures.

Then I got it. It might not be the answer for everyone, but it was the answer for me: finding a mentor to show me and guide me, someone who has been there and done that. That is the answer. It may not be the answer for everybody but that was the answer for me.

Then basically my mentor Alan took me under his wing. He taught me how to become a copywriter. In case our listeners don’t know what a copywriter is, a copywriter is basically someone who creates ads, and sales letters and all that junk mail you get in the mail or any kind of ads that you have. So I got started as a copywriter. He took me under his wing and I worked for him for next to nothing for one year.

Looking back, I always say that was the million dollar year of my life. I got a million dollars’ worth of education that year working with my mentor. Then I got started as a copywriter and within a couple of years and you can check my name. I was becoming quite well known as a copywriter. In fact in my early twenties I was making a six figure income as a copywriter; that was pretty good.

Then I transitioned into becoming more of a marketer. So from writing ads for other people, I become more of a marketing consultant and strategist. Usually when people come to me at the time they want some copy written for them, they need some marketing advice as well. It’s not just copy, David, there are other components involved. So naturally I made that transition to becoming a marketing consultant. I went from that, I made some money that I put into starting my own niche, websites. The internet was booming.

Some succeeded, some failed but that’s how I go into it. Looking fast forward to today, I own seven companies in various sectors. I’m also an angel investor. I actively invest in various companies where I provide guidance and advice and am a mentor to other people, at the same time helping them grow their business and become a partnership with my mentees.

David: It was almost like that transition and you started setting up a few of these websites and things like that. When we first started chatting you said, I’ve really shifted away from internet marketing. I’m wondering where you saw that transition or how you saw moving from that space into more of the managing and running of business and how that worked.

Dan: Good question. At the time, first of all, it wasn’t my intention. People sometimes associate me and think I’m an internet guru. It’s not who I am. I don’t want to be known as a guru, although that’s what people call me. I’m not an internet guru, I’m just a guy who likes business.

I made my money and am still making my money on the internet. Then I started teaching internet marketing, producing programs and doing workshops and ebooks and all those different education materials. I’ve made a lot of money doing that. I’ve helped a lot of people doing that. I noticed a few years ago there was a lot of hype in the industry. There was a lot of competition so everyone and their dog is an internet guru.

Anyone can pretend to be one. There is no standard and at the time it was very popular. It is still very popular today. You know how we have all those product launches, every month there is a guru launching something. That’s how they make money and they make a lot of money doing it, but I didn’t want to be part of that.

I’ve done it, I’ve made a lot of money doing product launches. I’ve made a lot of money with affiliates and those are all good. But I know every time I do a product launch, you make a lot of money within a short period of time. But after the launch guess what happens David?

David: Yes, the cash flow dries up and everything slows down.

Dan: Everything slows down and to me ok, this is not a business. This is, I make money, fast cash, that’s good. But then you’re not providing any sustainable long term value to anyone. You’re not delivering value to the marketplace long term. So if there is a very first lesson that I would like to share with the listeners it is this: there’s a big difference between a money maker and a business.

A money maker is short term. So for example someone who sets up a blog, they make money whatever it might be, they make money through AdSense, AdChoices now it’s called. To me that’s not a business, it’s a money maker. Or as an affiliate, you make affiliate commissions promoting other people’s products and you might do very well doing that. You might do very well financially. But to me that’s a money maker, not a business.

Business has equity. A business has customers. A business is something that is sustainable and that you can build long term and you could sell someday, it’s not dependent on you.

I got stuck into it but I finally got it. Looking at that I said, I don’t want to do this anymore. I want to build businesses. I want to do something that has sustainable value. You could say also that I wanted to play a bigger game at the time. I’ve done the private launch, I’ve done the affiliate, I’ve made a lot of money. I retired at the age of twenty-seven. I’ve got a comfortable life, it’s not because of that.

I wanted to do more, achieve more, play a different game, a bigger game. So that’s when I transitioned. From then on I said I’m not going to do anything just for the sake of making money and producing a product. I want to build a business. I want to build a business that has sustainable value that I could sell or I could run for many, many years. That changes everything, that was the mindset.

David: One of the businesses that we talked about just prior to this call which is maybe I think a good one to build your framework around because it is very easy for someone to understand. You set up one of those businesses which was a salon. You have a chain of salons. Was that one of the businesses that you bridged when you said, I want to start building a business, did that become the focus?

Dan: Yes. I own five salons. They’re hair salons, beauty salons and nail salons in Vancouver, British Columbia. What I do is I use the internet. I got into the salons because my wife wanted to do something and I didn’t expect too much. I said, if you want to start a business, I have some experience in business, maybe I could help.

So I financed her and we started the salon. I like that business because it is consistent. It is repeatable. The customer comes in, they get a haircut, two months later they come back to get a haircut. I like that business. It’s sustainable, it’s not changed by technology.
David, let’s say you walk down the street one day. Someone walks up to you and says, hey David, you’ve got a nice haircut. Where did you get that? You’re not going to reply, hey I got that on the internet. No, it’s always going to be here, it’s evergreen.

You look at a lot of these business now, for example: DVD rental companies, gaming shops, a lot of them are going to be extinct because of the technology. But service, beauty, these kinds of businesses, as long as we want to look good and feel good, they’re going to be around. So they’re here to stay.

So I like those businesses but then I use the internet. So I’ve got websites, I’ve got social media, all those tools, using technology to promote my offline businesses. So for example you go to Google, you type in Richmond Nail Salon, you see my salon. We’re on the first page, that’s the city where the salon is at. It brings a lot of customers to us. So I use technology, I use the internet to promote my offline businesses.

For those who are listening, don’t feel like, oh, I have an offline business, whatever business you have. I believe any business, I don’t care what you do, retail, restaurant, consultant, whatever you do, it doesn’t matter. You could use the internet to get more clients, to build relationships, to pre qualify clients. It is something that you could use and it would be very beneficial to your business.

David: If we go back to thinking about the stages you went through when you built this up because I see that bridging and it made sense, how you said, right I’m going to move into salons. Did you come up with a minimum viable product, the smallest piece, where you thought, right, the first thing we need to do is open a store? Or did you think, hey let’s run something out of the garage? What was that first point to say, I’ll get a small enough piece to know that I can build something that is going to work?

Dan: I think for a lot of entrepreneurs, the biggest mistake, including myself that I made, that I see a lot of people make is they have a product, they have a service, I invented this thing or came up with this idea so I think I should start a business and sell it. I think that is a very bad idea. A product, a service, whatever it might be, it’s just a product or service. It’s never a good idea and very often people get attached to the idea, emotionally attached to the idea. Although it may be a bad idea, you can make a bad idea profitable. Let’s just face it.

So instead, what I do is, I look for a market. Everything I do, I always look for a market first. Whatever product and service I deliver is secondary. I look to see if there is a market for it. Are there a lot of competitors? Is there a need or sense of urgency or irrational passion is always the question I ask. Is there need, sense of urgency or irrational passion? Are they actively looking for solutions? Can I market? Can I reach them profitably? Can I get the customers covered profitably?

So before I opened up my salon, here’s what I did. I went and visited fifty different salons in my area. Is there a void in the marketplace? Can I do better? Not just better, in fact better is not enough. For each business I start now, the number one question is, is there a need, sense or urgency or irrational passion?

Number two is this, can I be the number one guy in this niche? Can I be the number one salon in this niche? If not, then I don’t go into it. That is now my rule of thumb. Can I be the number one guy? You look at all these businesses that I own: jewellery or ecommerce or community sites, we are the number one in every category of every business that I’m involved with, including my training company in the salon industry.

Guess what? All the money goes to the number one guy. An example would be, if you look at any sector, let’s say Coca Cola and Pepsi. Pepsi could do all the advertising that they want, of which they do a lot, but Coca Cola will always be number one. In any category, if you’re not number one, if you’re number four or five, you probably won’t survive in any category. You don’t want to be what I call a me too business in the marketplace. You either have to reposition yourself, re brand yourself, or you find yourself, in marketing terms, a unique proposition that you could own.

So with my salon, the very first salon that I picked was what I called this 3D nail art. That was the niche that I picked. For those of you who are listening, if you’re not a woman, you don’t have to understand it, but think of it just as a skill that we focus on. I want to be known as a specialist in that 3D nail art skill. It’s high end and that’s what we did. It was our very first salon and we dominate, we dominate that.

So write this down if you’re listening: you don’t want to compete, you want to dominate. Do you think Apple competes? No, Apple dominates. Look at the iPod, they dominate. Look at the iPad, they dominate. Look at the iPhone, they dominate. They don’t compete.

David: It’s funny you say that, and you were talking about, you said, right, what’s an area or a part of this niche where I can dominate? You look at something like Apple and one of the first things that Steve Jobs did when he got back into Apple after he got booted out, was strip down their product line into four products or something like that. It was that, how can we just make the very best in this space?

Dan: Yes, it’s exactly like that. Sometimes as entrepreneurs we might do too many things and get too distracted. One of the key characteristics of an entrepreneur, a successful entrepreneur I believe, is the ability to focus. So less is more. If you can focus on what you want to do and you focus on the niche, don’t try to be everything to everybody. If everybody is your customer then nobody is a customer.

But if you can focus on, ok, here’s my ideal target market, here’s my ideal client. What can you create? What do they want first of all and what can you create to fulfil their needs? To me this is the position to be in.

The other day I drove by a restaurant in my area. Outside was a sign, fish and chips, hamburgers, you can get barbeques in this place, you can get Asian cuisine in this place and you can also get some sushi. What is this? Who wants to go in? You are a jack of all trades and master of none.

People nowadays, with their short attention span, here’s what’s happening in the marketplace. People want to deal with specialists. People want to deal with experts. People want to deal with people who are the best at what they do.

They don’t have time to hunt for and look for a lot of different options and analyze all these different choices. They want to deal with whoever is the most reliable, those they can trust. The more specialized you are, then the better your positioning is. More than that, the more money you can charge.

As an example, let’s say you have an audio program, an educational audio program on time management. Let’s say there are six CDs and a workbook on time management. How much can you sell that for?

David: $100, I don’t know.

Dan: $99, $100, yes. What if you had a program, six CDs and a workbook but now it’s Time Management for Dentists. How much can you sell that for?

David: Yes, $2000.

Dan: Yes. What if you had another program it’s Time management for Dentists with Multiple Offices? How much could you sell that for?

David: Yes, the price just keeps going up.

Dan: Yes, because it’s perceived to be more specialized, although the content could be 95% identical. But the perceived value is, ok, I’m a dentist or I’m a dentist with multiple offices. This is for me and it’s for me only. So I will pay a higher price. The product itself, all you have to do is, you mention ‘dentist’ a couple of times in the program. The content, the knowledge itself is the same but the perception is totally different.

So it’s the same thing. In the marketplace, whatever you do, the more specialized you are, there’s a great saying, there are riches in niches. That is very true.

For most small business owners, it’s better to focus, narrow down your niche. Focus on one part of the marketplace that you can dominate, then you do very well.

David: Yes, that first bit, I can see how you narrowed it down, you picked that market and then you honed in and you got the product. Then you took that to market to start to get some results. Once you started to get a few people through and started to get a little bit of momentum, I’m curious to know how you then started to bridge that next phase where you’re getting the word out and people are going to start coming in.

Obviously you were using the internet. In that next phase, how did you grow the business there?

Dan: To grow the business typically with the internet you have three ways to get more traffic to your website. The first way is what I call paid traffic. So you pay for the traffic. Basically you do Pay Per Click, you run an ad, you do banner ads, you could do a lot of those things. Number two is what I call free traffic, which is your specialty David, SEO, search engine optimization. Getting on the first page of Google through organic search, that is called free traffic.

However, for more traffic you either invest in time or money. So money is the paid traffic. Free traffic is free but the truth is, it’s not totally free. You’re investing time to get it. Just like when you work for a client, you have to build links for them, you have to create content, you have to do article submission, whatever it might be, but you have to invest time.

The third way is what I call rent, rent traffic. You’re renting traffic from other people. An example would be, you have a product and then you have an affiliate. They’ve got a list of your potential clients, then they do an email broadcast for you or they feature you on their blog or whatever it might be. You’re renting traffic and you’re paying the affiliate an affiliate commission.

So basically there are three ways, paid traffic, free traffic and rent traffic. Within those you have many tactics. But those are the three big categories I focus on.

David: This is interesting where we start to see the merge between traditional internet marketing and traditional business. You almost interchange just there. Those are the same strategies you would have been using to help promote when you were in the internet marketing space with all the ebooks and products and those types of things. When it comes to the salon types of things, I know you’re also doing some things offline. Did you find because you had the area of expertise online that your biggest competitive advantage for the salon was driving traffic in online ways?

Dan: Absolutely. Most offline business owners have no clue what to do with online. Nowadays the world is online, social media, facebook. Almost all the print advertising, like Yellow Pages and all those. Do you have that in Australia?

David: Yes.

Dan: They’re all dying, if not already dead. People don’t use them. Nowadays look at your own life. For example if you’re looking for a new restaurant in your area, where do you go look?

David: Hop on Google.

Dan: The internet. If you get lost and you’re looking for directions, where do you go look?

David: Google, go straight to Google Maps.

Dan: If you want to catch a movie, you want to check out when it’s playing, where it’s playing, if it’s a good movie, a bad movie, to look at the review, where do you go?

David: Internet as well, Google.

Dan: Yes. So it’s changed the way we shop, it’s changed the way we live and it’s changed the way we do business. So it’s not just all these Google things, these internet things, no, that is the business. I don’t care what business you do. It doesn’t matte. You’re correct, it has given me a huge advantage, no doubt. Absolutely no doubt.

Once I get a client coming in, let’s just use the salon example again because those are the examples your audience can relate to, you listeners can relate to. If someone comes to the salon, guess what we do? We capture their name, email and address. Then after their first visit, next day they’ll get a thank you email from us. Thank you for visiting our salon etc. We appreciate you as a client, etc. We do text messaging. We remind them three weeks later to make an appointment with us.

If someone comes into a salon and they don’t come back in three months, what do we have? We have a series of campaigns that goes out to them through email, reminding them, please come back, we miss you. I call that the reactivation campaign to bring back lost clients. So I use all this technology. When was the last time you saw a salon that does all these things?
David; You just don’t.

Dan: You just don’t. They don’t even know who their customers are. You ask them how many customers they have. They don’t know. How many active customers do they have? I know exactly how many customers I have, I track all of that, how often they come back, what is the average they spend on our salon, what is the annual value of a client if they come back in three or four months. I know all these things.

We have marketing. I use technology to automate a lot of these things that goes out to them. I’m the only one who does it; there are very few salons that actually do it. It gives us a huge advantage. It’s that simple.

David: I suppose this is how you have managed to roll out multiple stores. Like you talked about, when you are the go to guy, when you’re the number one in that space, once word starts to get out and you’ve got your competitive advantage as you brought your internet skills, that starts to generate the cash flow, the businesses coming through and the systems start to get a little bit tighter.

When it comes to that scaling, obviously, when you’ve got multiple stores, once you even have your second store, it becomes a different ball game. It’s not like you can micro manage everything.

Dan: Oh, totally different. An example, I believe what is the most valuable asset in a business? It’s not your equipment, it’s not your location, it’s none of that. It’s your customer base. All your wealth comes from your customer base. My first salon was the nail salon. When I opened my hair salon, I’m not starting from scratch. I just simply offer all my existing nail salon clients, hey, you know what? We’ve got this hair salon opening up, grand opening. If you were to go there and make an appointment, we will give you a special offer because you are already an existing client.

So immediately I’m tapping into the thousands and thousands of customers that I’ve built a relationship with over a couple of years. I’m not starting from ground zero, that’s done. So immediately when I open a second business, I already have a customer base.

Then when I open up a third location, a fourth location, it’s the same thing, plus of course we get new clients, new blood coming in through the internet, through facebook, through twitter, a lot of these strategies that we do.

Once they come in, then we capture information. When you have the customer base, let’s say we have a very slow week. Next week it is just not that busy and business is a bit slow. Well, when I have their email, when I have the text messaging, I can easily send them a special offer saying, hey, you know what, next week with this special going, if you make an appointment by this time, let’s say by tomorrow before 3pm, you’re going to get 30% off, whatever it might be.

So instead of having that dead time, that down time, now we can at least turn that into some money, we fill the appointment book.

We can do a lot of what I call marketing on demand and you can do a lot of these things when you use technology. You’re not sitting there twiddling your thumbs and hoping the customer will show up. Everything is very systematic, everything is very scientific, everything is very strategic.

David: That idea of creating extension businesses we call it, which is the same idea, you’re feeding off that same customer base, is really smart. I think one thing that a lot of entrepreneurs see, it’s almost like, hey, they’re starting to have a little bit of success here. They might get a few team members on board because they’re getting a bit busier.

A big hurdle that often happens when you get to a business of that size is it’s almost like you’re spinning plates. You’re giving items and tasks to your team members to do and then you move to the next person. You move to the next person, move to the next person. By the time you get to the end of getting something for that last team member to work on, you have to go back to the first person to give them something because they’re running out of things to do.

You’re now at a point with that volume of salons, you’ve broken through that point. What are some of the ways that you saw to overcome that? You talk about your business being very systemized and you know lots of numbers and you know what’s going on. I’m interested to hear about that process that you went through to put those systems in place.

Dan: Good question. First of all, you cannot improve something you don’t measure. So you’ve got to measure what it is that you do and some of the key metrics. I’m not a numbers guy, I’m a big picture guy, I’m a concept guy. There are some basic numbers that you need to know. Even for SEO when it comes to optimizing the website for your clients, you’ve got to know how many visitors they’re getting, where they are at ranking wise, what’s the conversion, what are the keywords, some of the basic matrix numbers you’ve got to know.

It’s the same thing in any business. You’ve got to know what is your lifetime value of a client, what is the cost per lead, cost per sale, some of these basic numbers. Once you know those things, then you could go back and look at, ok, what do I need to do? Then you can basically put systems in place for each of those things to produce consistent results.

A hypothetical example, Victoria’s Secret is a good example. Do you guys have that in Australia?

David: Yes.

Dan: So Victoria’s Secret, years ago, when you went into Victoria’s Secret years ago, typically when you go into a shop, what do they ask you? How can I help you? That’s very common. What do most people say?

David: No thanks, just looking.

Dan: No, I’m just looking. So Victoria’s Secret, the marketing guy at Victoria’s Secret came up with this idea, instead of asking how can I help you, to which most people would say, I’m just looking, I’m browsing, don’t bother me, how about we just change our language a little bit and see how that works? So they know the conversion, they know how many leads they’re getting, how many walk in traffic they’re getting and it wasn’t producing good results.

Instead of asking how can I help you, they switched the question and asked, have you been here before? There are only two replies to that. Yes, I have been here before. The salesperson then said, great. Here is our special rack for our loyal customers. Check this out, try this on. Oh great.

Or it was no, I haven’t been here before, this is my first time. Great, let me take you to this rack. This is our special promotion rack for our new customers, which is the same rack. Sales went up 16%. Sixteen percent with basically one question change. So that is the conversion part. That is a system. That is a script they could use, they could roll it out with all the other stores they had worldwide.

Looking at your own business, everything that you do, everything that is working, let’s say if you’re selling, you have any marketing process, you have an ad that is running that is working, you’ve got to document it, you’ve got to have it in place. An example would be with my salon, Valentine’s Day, Mother’s Day, those are big, Christmas, we have gift certificate offers. It’s the same every year because it works.

I put it into my operation manual. I put it into a system and then my staff would know, ok, you know what, Mother’s Day is coming up, which is in May. So April will be the same promotion that we did last year because it works. That is marketing, that’s a marketing system. Many systems you need within a business.

For those of you who have not read the book, there is a book that I love called The E-Myth by Michael Gerber. Basically in the book Michael talks about you want to work on your business, not just in your business. You’ve got to have all these systems, marketing systems, and operation systems in place.

First you measure and you quantify, then you improve and then you document it. I’ll say it again. You measure what’s going on, you quantify it and then you systemize it and then you document it. Basically if you could automate it, use technology, that would be great. If not, put together some sort of system that your staff can implement. Does that make sense?

David: It’s funny, as we talk about these different stages and moving through creating a business, I know that someone who is listening to this can start to see how these pieces apply to them and their business. What are your thoughts, are there some real fundamentals here that just can get applied from one business to the next, or is every business unique? How do you see that?

Dan: I believe that there are certain business fundamentals. Business fundamentals are business fundamentals, they don’t change. So you’ve got the big picture that stays the same but in every business there is always some what I call insider knowledge. There is something that you know that other people don’t know. That insider knowledge, every business has that. It’s what you call trade secrets. Everybody has that.

An example would be, let’s say whatever business you have, maybe there is a way for you to acquire customers very inexpensively. Maybe it’s your marketing process or you’ve got that one thing that works extremely well or that sales script that works extremely well or you have patent technology that works well. Whatever it might be, it doesn’t matter, that thing is called a trade secret. If you don’t have that, you have to find out what it is. Once you have it, that’s what gives you the edge.

Typically in any business, I believe you have big universal principles. The true secret to success is you want to find what that trade secret is or come up with what that trade secret is before you run out of money. That’s basically it. In any business, you want to find out what is that trade secret, what is going to make me different from everybody else, what is the one distinct advantage I could have that I can leverage before you run out of money.

If you get that, then your business is good. Most people fail. Most people go out of business because they couldn’t find it, they don’t know what it is and then they run out of money and the business fails.

David: With you now, because I suppose you talked about this idea of playing a bigger picture and starting to think multiple businesses, now that you are running and operating in multiple different businesses, when you think about investing and working in a business, is that what you’re looking to do? Are you trying to identify right, what is the trade secret in that business and then how do we go through these steps that we just talked about?

Usually when it’s time to invest they’ve already got the minimum viable product. You probably bring some of the magic for them as far as getting the word out and the marketing side of things, the system side of things and helping that trade secret. What is the thought process for you when you’re looking for new business opportunities or investing in business?

Dan: Great question. I don’t know if you guys have the show, or watch a show called Dragons’ Den?

David: Yes, love it.

Dan: They have it in the UK. I love that show, it’s not just a show, it’s what I do in real life. It’s not as dramatic as that, but it’s what we do. Basically a bunch of investors would sit down, probably twenty, thirty of us and we hear these entrepreneurs pitching us, all day. They all have fifteen minutes or so and they pitch and we listen. If we’re interested, we invest in their ventures.

I look at hundreds and hundreds of proposals, pitches and all that sort of thing. Here’s what I look for. I’m explaining to you my thought process. I think it would be beneficial to your listeners. Number one I always look at the people first. I’m not investing in a business, I’m investing in people. I look at the entrepreneur, the guy who is running the business. Do I feel comfortable with this person or this team? Can I see that we could have a long term relationship?

Money doesn’t come into play first. I have a look at their character, their personality, their work ethic, their integrity, that’s important. So I look at people first, not the business, not the idea, the people first because I invest in people, number one.
Number two, I look at, is the business scaleable? An example would be a business with one guy, and the whole business depends on the guy growing it, then to me it’s no good, because it’s not scaleable. So I want to look at scaleable means. Can I grow the business, can I scale the business without a whole lot of input structure?

An example would be a business doing $100,000 in sales. To grow to $1,000,000 in sales, does that mean I have to hire 10,000 more people? Another example would be an iPhone app. Good idea. If we sell one, it doesn’t matter if we sell 100,000. The work is done. Our input structure is the same. To serve that one client or 100,000 clients, to me that’s scaleable. I look at the business, is this scaleable? That’s number two. That’s very important for me.

Number three I always look for what I just said, can we dominate? Can we position ourselves as the number one in what we do? That’s important for me. Can we position this technology, this product, whatever it might be to be the number one in that category? That is number three.

Number four, what I look for, for me, because I’m an active investor, meaning when I invest in a company I get hands on. I coach the guy. I become more of a coach. So I want to make sure the guy is coachable and I make sure I can add value to it.

An example would be if it’s some kind of technology, let’s say the other day I saw something in the medical field of technology which I know nothing about. Even though there is potential, it’s not something I understand, it’s not something I could add value to, so I turned down the offer. I could not invest. It might be a great idea but I cannot add value so I didn’t invest.

This I learned from Warren Buffett. Invest in something you understand. Warren Buffett is interesting. Bill Gates’ mentor is actually Warren Buffet. That is kind of curious. So the richest men on the planet has the second richest man on the planet as mentor.
Warren Buffett, as much as he likes Bill Gates, as much as he trusts Bill Gates, he doesn’t invest in Microsoft. He doesn’t own any stock in Microsoft. Warren doesn’t understand technology.

So it’s the same with me, if I don’t understand the industry, I don’t understand the business, I stay away from it. It could be a great idea, I could see great potential, oh, I could make a lot of money doing that. It might make a lot of money but it’s not something I understand, then no. I say, I’m not interested in that.

Another thing I look for, most important is this, as an investor, do they have an exit strategy? That’s probably the number one thing. I look for. Do they have a clear exit plan? So I would sometimes question the entrepreneur. Oh, Dan, this is how we’re going to grow the business, it’s how we’re going to get revenue and so on.

I only have one question. How do I get my money out? When am I going to get my money back? Is it a three year thing, is it a five year thing, is it a seven year thing? How are we going to exit? How are you going to sell the business in other words? Who are you going to sell it to?

If the guy replies, I just want to make a living. I just want to make some money doing this, that’s not the guy to invest in because he doesn’t get it. I look for the guy who understands, Dan, we’re going to build this business in three years or five years into this kind of revenue. We’re going to have this kind of infrastructure, these kinds of systems in place. Eventually I want to sell it to a, b, c, d, whatever company for x amount of dollars in five years or three years. Good, he’s got a plan. He has an exit.

The day you start a business, you’ve got to think about selling. Any business I have now, they’re all sellable. If the price is right, I’ll sell it in a heartbeat. I’m not attached to any one of them. To me business is a vehicle, it’s a financial vehicle. It’s not my baby, it’s just a financial vehicle. So an exit is very key.

One of my mentors, Basil Peters, who is probably one of the top exit strategists in the world, he coached me on that as well. I look for the exit. Before I invest a dime I’m looking at when I’m going to sell. The faster the better, by the way. If I can sell it in two years, I can turn around, we can grow to a certain point. In a couple of years often because that is how as an investor we get our money back. Does that make sense?

David: Yes, and I’m wondering your thought process if it has changed based on the level at which you’re playing at. Obviously when you first get started, hey, I just need to get a minimum viable product. Then it’s hey, I need to get some business through the door. Then it’s hey, I need to scale it and I need to get some systems. Then it’s hey, I’m in business here now. Am I now the investor who is looking for these opportunities?

Often times I think that is a big thing that you talked about is that exit. Often times a lot of entrepreneurs are not thinking about the exit. They’re just thinking about building their business and that is a big part of your bridging. Like you said, I’m playing a bigger game now. How do you make your money when you’re investing in business? You make your money when that asset is sold.

Dan: Absolutely, so of course at first when I started business, I was praying, I was hoping, just let me make $2000 a month. I will be a happy guy. If my business can provide me with $2000 a month, I’m the happiest guy on the planet. When I got that $2000, I said, please, let me make $4000 a month. I won’t ask for anything else. If I made $4000 a month, I would be a happy guy. Then $4000, then $6000, $10,000 and $20,000.

Of course over the years I’ve grown a lot and am still growing. But that is how my mind has shifted and changed. I think bigger now. I look at business very differently. I don’t look at it as a way to make a living. I look at it as creating something, I’m creating a vehicle, I’m creating a business, I’m creating a brand that has long term equity and value. It’s a game that I play. To me it’s a very interesting game.

Some people like sports. What’s a type of sport in Australia?

David: Australian Rules football.

Dan: Yes, football. Some people like sports, some people like soccer. My sport is business. I like business as a sport, I like to win, I like to compete. Sport as an athlete, you are competing with a certain number of people. In the down time you’re down.

But in business you’re competing 24/7, all the time. You’re competing with the smartest people on the planet. I like that challenge and I like to win. That’s basically what it is. It’s a fun thing. The thrill that you get when you exit a business, when you figure something that works, when you sell the product, when you get the customer, when you help a customer, that to me is fun.

David: Maybe in the tail end of this call as we come into the wrap up, I know you’ve obviously coached and worked with a lot of businesses and start ups and helping them move through that phase. Not only that, you’ve gone through that whole growth phase from conception through to sale. Where are some of the places that you see, you’ve already identified a few, but where business owners are getting stuck or any key business lessons?

If we were to leave someone just with a few ideas that might help them overcome some problems that they’ve either got or chances are will come up against.

Dan: A few things. I think I alluded to it already, number one you want to think of the exit on the very first day. It will change the way you look at your business. Now you will think bigger, you’ll think more long term, you’ll be more strategic. You won’t be so emotionally attached to what you have. So think of your exit on day one, number one.

Number two you’ve got to find a mentor. I wouldn’t be where I am without a mentor. Whoever that person might be, someone who has been there and done that, where you want to be in your dreams. Every area that I want to excel in, I have a mentor for. For example I have a business coach, I have a marketing coach, I have a marketing consultant, I have a fitness coach, fitness trainer, I have a relationship coach. So wherever I want to excel, in whatever area of my life, I hire the best and I have someone teach me. I’m coachable.

Most entrepreneurs are not coachable. They’ve got such a big ego that it’s their way or the highway. Great. I always tell entrepreneurs, you’ve got to weigh your ego with your bank account, which one weighs more? That’s the second thing.

The third thing is the most important thing I’m going to leave the listeners with. Years ago my mentor asked me this question. He said Dan, what do you think is the number one quality of a successful entrepreneur? Now David, let me ask you that question. What do you think is the number one quality of a successful entrepreneur?

David: The first one that came to mind was persistence.

Dan: Persistence, good, yes. Very close. I answered the ability to sell or the ability to market or management, whatever it might be. He said, very close. What he said the number one quality of an entrepreneur is this: it’s the ability to endure pain for a long period of time. You know, knowing you might not be successful in the first year, the second year, the third year. You might not make a dime for the first five years in fact. You may not be able to pay the bills, feed the family. How badly do you want it? How will you keep going? How much would you sacrifice?

Most people don’t want it that badly. They just don’t want it that badly. How long can you endure the uncertainty, the darkness, the difficulty, the challenges. You keep on going and keep on going until you get there.

Ross Perot, of Perot System, one of the greatest entrepreneurs of our time, a billionaire, died a billionaire. In the first ten years in business he didn’t make a dime. The first ten years in business, he didn’t make a dime. Just think about it. Most people want to get rich quickly. Oh, I started a business and in one year I’ll be a millionaire. You might, you might be, who knows? You might be at the right time, in the right place, you might be. But I say don’t count on it.

Whatever you think it’s going to take, how long you think it’s going to take, what it might be, just multiply that by three or five. You think it’s going to take you five months to break even, it’s going to take five years. If you’re going with that kind of mentality, now you’re more prepared.

People get disappointed because their expectations aren’t met. They quit their job, they start a business. They think, well my business will provide me with enough income to replace my job income in three months. It takes them three years and they give up.

They just give up.

Knowing, going in, it’s going to take me way more effort than I anticipated. It’s going to take me way more time and effort, then you’re more prepared for it. Then when you go into it, you’re mentally prepared, you’re mentally tough and then you go for it. I believe that is the difference between success and failure.

David, like you mentioned, I started and failed at thirteen businesses before having my first success. I could have given up at the fifth one or the sixth one, but I didn’t. The truth is, it could take me twenty businesses, twenty-five businesses to succeed, it doesn’t matter. I would have kept on going and going and going until I got there. It’s not a question of how or even a question of if I’m going to get there, it’s only a question of when.

I know if I work on it long enough, then I will succeed. But most people give up too soon, that’s what I’m trying to say. They give up too soon. There is a quote on my desk actually from Ross Perot. He says this: success is on the razor’s edge of failure. When it couldn’t be any worse, when it couldn’t be any darker, when you’re betting everything you’ve got on the line, when it couldn’t be any worse, that’s usually when a breakthrough happens.

David: I love it. That’s a really powerful note to leave on. I think someone will have that reverberating in their mind. You’re a great example and inspiration for a lot of entrepreneurs. I really appreciate the time that you’ve given us and been so generous with all of the information that you’ve given.

You pretty much dug deep on every question that I asked and explained it very fully. I think it’s great to see how you have leveled up, how you’re playing a bigger game and now you’re approaching internet marketing from a completely different angle. You’re thinking about how and where does it fit into the bigger picture of business. I feel glad that we were able to share that in this call.
If people want to find out a little bit more about you Dan, I know you don’t do things quite the way you used to. I know you still do some coaching and mentoring for the right people. You do your angel investing. If people want to find out more about what you do, where is the best place for them to find out?

Dan: Always just google me: Dan Lok or just go to danlok.com.

David: Perfect. Well, thank you very much for you time Dan. I very much appreciate it.

Dan: Yes. You guys who are listening, keep pushing, take massive action and you’ll get there.

One of the things, to revisit the travel shirt company, one of the things I suggested to them was why don’t you have a private beta launch? You can bring in hand selected, top level recognized travellers, people who are recognized for their skill set or their lifestyle or whatever. Let them get a free shirt or get a really inexpensive shirt and develop the product with you. Then that core group of affinity partners are going to be the first people who pass your message along.

I think at the beginning it can be really important to get people who have a real stake in the industry in some way or another, involved in the product development process. I heard this great anecdote. Someone was talking about the traffic equation, how do I get JV partners into my big traffic product or whatever. Nobody wants to be a JV so how do I get traffic? His point was, look, if you can’t convince people in your industry that your product is good, good luck getting consumers to be convinced. I thought that was a cool sleight of hand answer.

If you can’t convince your peers in the marketplace, that what you’re doing is meaningful, then forget about the average retail consumer. I’d start with the people who are meaningful in your industry. Try to convince them on your concept and then you’ll have the double benefit of them passing it along to their audiences.

David: Yes, that follows a principle we talk about, this idea of connecting with the connectors. You do that very early on in moving into a market space. Whether you do it though interviewing them just to get on their radar and then find out how there is some sort of cross over. Once you connect with the people who already have your audience, it’s a great way. They’ll give you feedback on whether or not it’s going to be of value to your target market because they know the target market.

Once it starts to roll now and you might start to get on a few people’s radars and you’re getting in front of the right audience, how do you then judge if this is working? You fire a few different arrows and you talked about letting some businesses fade away while others are growing strong. Do you just focus on what’s working the best and drop what’s not or is there a way that you filter, yes, this is working and this is not?

Dan: You ask the hardest questions. If I was good at answering these questions, I wouldn’t have to work anymore. It’s very difficult. One of the things is constant recalibration and constant looking at the numbers. We very often project in to the future, what is this likely to look at? I think one of the biggest things that people fail to do when they’re starting businesses is they fail to fail to look at the long term implications of what they’re doing.

I have a friend who just copped this what we were talking about earlier, he put up a jewellery shop online as a 50% partner with the guy who is the supplier. His reasoning was, if I can make $2000-$3000 a month from this business, that is going to be great for me. So it was worth all this upfront effort. I said, alright, let us just run through a little scenario. Let’s plan for success. Let’s make a hypothetical balance sheet of what your easy little side project looks like when it’s making $50,000 a month.

Do you have a bookkeeper? Ok, yes, with $50,000 a month you’re going to have a bookkeeper. Do you have a customer service agent? Yes, well who is going to pay for that? Are you buying inventory? What is your inventory level? You see you start to go down, ok, how much money are you making from that?

When we started our businesses, I think we really failed to plan for success, to look what success would look like. Is success making $75,000 a month? Ok, then what does that look like? What kind of staff do you need?

James Schramko does a great exercise similar to that where he says, alright you want to double your business next year? What is going to break? You just start to reverse engineer what that kind of dream success looks like. I think that is a great exercise for people to try to figure out whether they’re going down the right road or not.

David: I don’t know who it was, I think it was Teslar, he used to do this thing back in the day where he would create machines in his mind. Then he would turn the machine on, he would go to sleep and when he’d wake up he would then see where the machine had broken down. It was like he would create these machines, let them run for a year or two which might just be him sleeping. In the morning he’d wake up and he’d say, oh, that’s where it broke down and then he’d tweak his machine.

He’d do this numerous times until he got to the point where he’d say, wow, that is the machine and then he’d build it in real life. I know that is the next level type of thing but I love that type of thinking, thinking about where is this going to break and then you make sure that is strong.

Have you read a book called Work the System by Sam Carpenter?

Dan: Not yet, I’ve read the Cliff notes on it and I’ve heard many good things.

David: I reckon you’d enjoy that. I digress. I feel like you’ve given that really good step by step framework on the way that people would actually build up a business from scratch and figure out if it’s going to be a success.

I’m wondering, because you get to chat with so many different entrepreneurs particularly with the new business that you’re setting up and also the work that you’ve done, have you come across any insights or big learnings for you that almost seem a little bit counter intuitive to success? You don’t think it would work some way but when it actually comes to application, you think entrepreneurs might have it a little bit back to front?

Dan: There is a bunch of things in the process so I will start back at the beginning. One of the things I’ve noticed is that the best way to start a business is to get a job. What’s happened in the past decade is that the promise of entrepreneurship has become so appealing and the benefits are so appealing that people are rushing to become entrepreneurs and start business. But a lot of times it is too soon, before they’ve got the requisite skill set.

It is a skill set, it’s a way of life, making life a deal, becoming a deal maker, becoming that hustler, that is a skill set. It’s a broad meta and soft skill set. It’s very difficult to learn. You learn by doing it.

You don’t learn about entrepreneurship by going to college. You’ve got to run a business and it’s really tough to have a business when you don’t have a business, it’s a chicken/egg thing. So I think one of the most counter intuitive ways to get started in business is to go work for an entrepreneur who has fewer than fifteen employees.

You are going to have an incredible learning experience, training at altitude so to speak. If you started on your own, you might have one client, but if you work for someone with fifteen employees, you might have seventy-five clients to manage. The kinds of issues that you’re going to face are going to accelerate your progress. You’re going to have the double benefit of making yourself a trusted agent having that professional networking group. So being seen as someone who can be trusted in a group of successful entrepreneurs is one of the biggest assets you can have in your career.

If you’re just working a corporate gig, you don’t know those people. Those people aren’t networking with you and they don’t’ know what you can do. When you talk to a lot of people who manage to create successful businesses, dig deep. A lot of times, guys like me, I’m a business coach and I tell you about what I did and that kind of thing and a lot of it is survivor’s bias. I’m just telling you what I did.

I might be wrong and it might not work for you. I think if you dig down into everybody’s story, there are often a few key relationships in there. Those things generally come from working hard for people, for other people’s businesses. I think that is something to take a look at that might be a little bit counter intuitive.

David: Were there any things I suppose along similar lines that gave you big breakthroughs? Obviously you saying right, getting a job is good because then it gave me the right skill set and you’re eating your own dog food I suppose. You built a business off that manufacturing experience you got that you learned from working with someone else. Were there any other big breakthroughs or things that you came across, such as, oh, I wish we had put on customer service staff earlier on? Or are there any other things like that where you kick yourself afterwards and say, I should have done that five years earlier?

Dan: Oh, how long is the podcast? There is one thing, a lot of people look at an employee as  someone who is going to cost you time and cost you energy and maybe prevent you from traveling. I really look at it as the exact opposite. Employees will help you work less, they will help you free up more time to travel. Every time we develop a new cash flow, I wish we had hired earlier, been more aggressive about building a team.

I have this thing called the rule of six which is you always have in your professional working career a high band of interaction with about six people. If you’re a solo preneur, five of those people are your clients. If you’re running a team of ten people, then it’s your top four people plus your top two clients.

It evolves as you go up. Steve Jobs only interacted with six people. So your stress level doesn’t really change, it’s just a mater of the value changes. So the faster you can up level that value and get people working for solid systems, for solid cash flows, the faster your business is going to grow. As my business grows, the more and more fun I have focusing on those top six and putting in processes.

I have a process for how I interact with each of those six people and when we talk and what we talk about and what we’re each responsible for. As my business grows, those people are making so much more value in my life, so it gets more and more fun. At the beginning those people were just giving me heartache because they were my clients. I find a lot of solo preneurs and people maybe with one virtual assistant or two, they’re really hesitant to get people on their team.

I think that was something really counter intuitive for me. It really freed up my time, it really made life and business a lot more fun.

David: How did you go with the letting go side of that? Obviously when you bring in team members, there is a point where you can’t micro manage as much. I’m always keen to hear how people move through that stage.

Dan: That is interesting because I often say one of the hardest things about hiring is finding something better to do. A lot of entrepreneurs will hire and then they’ll just say, alright, well, that’s what I did for the last two years.

I’ve never really had that problem but I’ve had more the opposite problem. I didn’t micro manage enough at the beginning. Now when I on board somebody, we have a really intense process especially with the philosophical discussions. This is a great exercise for the entrepreneur too. I make sure that I use cheers instead of thanks when I sign off the email. Why? That is an important judgment. Here’s the great news. When we make that judgment, you and I have a two minute discussion about it. We make the judgment one time, it goes into the standard operating procedure and we never make that judgment again. Then we build the business.

We don’t have a bunch of people making unique, clever judgments every time they need to make a salutation. That extends throughout the whole range of the job. We’re constantly developing standard operating procedures, we’re constantly evolving them and we have a lot of philosophical discussions about the reason things go down certain ways in our business.

I think that’s a lot of fun.

It helps you clarify your own thinking too and it really is fun developing these procedures. I see them like little laws and charters in their own country. It’s like your own little fiefdom, that you create in your own little ideal world. You do this for the way that you think your customers should be treated.

It’s a lot of fun to show care in that way and to do it with your team members who you care about.

David: With your SOPs, do you just have a Dropbox where you’re sharing them all in text documents? Or do you have a centralized system, do you do it through Google docs, how do you handle it?

Dan: We do all Google docs and it is really as simple as possible. We don’t even use project management software right now. We want to have as few layers of complexity as possible.

David: Yes, there is something to be said for keeping it simple. It plays to that point you were talking about earlier about getting that minimal viable product together. Don’t try and over complicate things. I think entrepreneurs do that a lot.

Dan: Yes, no question. That’s the resistance. It’s emotional resistance, what Steven Pressfield talks about. You’re being creative, you’re worried about being judged and worried about being wrong. It’s so much easier to sit back in a war room and sketch out the product than it is to actually step forward and take on the responsibility and open yourself up for criticism.

The sooner you do that the better off you’re going to be obviously because that is much better information than what is already in your head.

David: I really like the way that you think and the way that you present your ideas. You do cool little things and I heard it in the podcast where you have your little naming convention, you’re playing long ball and all that type of thing. I think in one of the podcasts you mentioned about working on a book. I don’t know if it was either you or Ian, but is that something where you’re planning on outlining this framework you’ve got for building a business or have I completely missed the mark there?

Dan: No, that’s it. Speaking of having something better to do, there is bunch of things that I could do that would be good for my business and that’s the case for any entrepreneur. One of the things that I’ve always wanted to do is write books because I’ve got so much out of them personally myself and I think it’s a cool project. Last month I’ve been working on that and I should have one out by the end of the year. The overall framework is going to be called the Thousand Day Principle.

What I’ve seen is that when people quit their jobs and they focus full time on a business for three years, that’s generally the point in time when they start making the same amount of salary as they did at whatever corporate career they did. It’s not a scientific principle but I want to reset people’s expectations about the time frames involved in becoming an entrepreneur.

The idea of the book will be to share a bunch of stories and ideas you can use along the way as you’re trying to get through your thousand days. It’s not easy to sustain that when you know that you could just go back and make a good salary, a safe salary back at your job.

David: It’s a got a little bit of that feel to it, that whole 10,000 hours. I love it the way you’ve made it real world, people need to be playing that long ball. I think it’s important. In the tail end of the call, I don’t know if there is anything else that you want to add in or anything else you wanted to mention. I know you guys cover so much in the podcast, so I want to point people that way.

If people want to find out more, what is the best way to see what you guys are up to?

Dan: Absolutely. We love doing the Lifestyle Business podcast. Just before I got on the phone with you Dave, we were recording episode 131. It just started as Ian and my beer hour after a hard week of work, just trying to decode some of the things we had learned. We built up a great community around it of people doing the same and it’s just been an absolute blast. Yes, lifestylebusiness.com.

David: Perfect. Anything final you want to add or shall we wrap it up there?

Dan: That’s all I’ve got man. By the way we were just talking, I’m in Manila right now and come visit your VAs. If you’re in Melbourne or Australia, it would just be a great experience for you and for them. I’ve heard this universally across the board. Come to Makati; if you need a hotel recommendation, email me.

It’s a great time to hang out, go out to dinner with your staff and get to know them. This is part of this concept of lifestyle business too, is if you can accelerate the goals of your employees faster than they could on their own, they’re going to love to work for your business. Get on the plane to Manila and check it out.

David: Bang, super solid advice. Alright Dan, thank you again for your time and if people want to find out more, make sure they head over to the Lifestyle Business podcast and they can listen along with me as well. So thanks again Dan and we’ll talk soon.

Dan: Thank you so much.


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